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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2007 3:23:22 GMT -8
Gary could you explain a transformers primary winding to me where I can understand. Is this correct: The primary winding, is the transformers input AC. Are the two input wires + & - terminals wire a single wire wound around the transformer core? like input + on one end of a single wire and input - is the other end of the same wire? Why doesn't it short out? If you run mains AC thru the secoundary IT will short out. I,m curious, why doesn't the mains in the primary coil short out.
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Post by Gary Lecomte on Mar 25, 2007 6:04:31 GMT -8
Are you talking about a Power Transformer or an Inverter Transformer?
A Power transformer Usually only has ONE Winding for the Primary. An Inverter Transformer usually has TWO Windings for the Primary.
There really is NO + or - on Primary Windings on the Input to a Power Transformer, as the Input is AC. AC Power Constantly Switches Polarity.
QUOTE: "I,m curious, why doesn't the mains in the primary coil short out".
It Doesn't short out Because it a Coil that has been designed to have a Specific Inductance for the Frequency and Voltage that it will be operated at. This Specific Inductance CREATES an Impedance to the AC Voltage and Frequency. This AC Impedance is SIMULAR to a DC Resistance, but only on AC.
EXAMPLE: Even though a Coil MAY only Measure .5 Ohms as a DC ResistanceTest, It May actually have an Impedance of 200 OHMS to AC Power.
Does This Explain it so you Understand?
Gary
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2007 20:03:34 GMT -8
I think I should leave this one alone. Just knowing that the AC mains are connected to both ends of the same wire that makes-up the primary coil is good enough for me. Thought maybe I was missin something.
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Post by Gary Lecomte on Mar 27, 2007 8:50:50 GMT -8
I think I should leave this one alone. Just knowing that the AC mains are connected to both ends of the same wire that makes-up the primary coil is good enough for me. Thought maybe I was missin something. I Would Suggest you LEARN MORE. The Inductance is REALLY Important. Just the Little Knowlege that you have, Can Be Dangerous.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2007 20:53:53 GMT -8
Gary , I,m allways open to learn new things, Its thoroughly understanding somethings is where I might have some problems. Anyway, I've got my bridge rectifier (s) in today and wired up the transformer to the bridge. Thru the bridge and the capacitor I have a rectified DC voltage (no load) of 32.8 V. Can you tell me how to discharge the capacitor.I was thinking about how the AC capacitor in a microwave oven uses a resistor (I think) .
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Post by Gary Lecomte on Mar 31, 2007 5:48:21 GMT -8
The Proper way to Discharge it is to put a Resistor across it. (Somewher between 10 to 100 ohms would be good)
The Lower the Resistance of the Resistor, the Faster it will Discharge it, But Lower Resistance requires a Higher Wattage Resistor.
Or you can just Short out that cap with a Screw Driver or piece of wire. HOWEVER, if it Fully Charged, be Prepared for a Big Loud Spark.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2007 20:01:55 GMT -8
Gary, I have a small transformer salvaged from a VCR. Ive rectified the output to get 13.58VDC. I wired the 13.58 volts to the PWM board (small red & black wires). then I wired the 30V from main power supply, + to the cell and then out to the PWM (heatsink connection). The - is wired to the big red wire (ground on the PWM). But I get no power thru the cell. also the yellow led will come on . But no power thru the cell. I can disconnect the PWM and connect straight to the cell and It pumps out the hydrogen. (Plain tap water, no electrolite) I have connected the PWM to 12V Battery source and it worked. Is the 30V to much for the two mosfets? I also connected the PWM up to a small speaker instead of the cell and can hear the changing of the frequencys as I adjust Coarse and fine adjustments. Can't tell anything about the pulse width.Because of the way the PWM connects to the cell the pulse width doesn't control the cell voltage like say a DC motor speed control does. I also have this DC motor controller . It will vary the cell production from very little to a lot of production, but it will only handle 15 volts at 20 amps continuous. It controls the DC voltage like a light dimmer. www.electronic-light.com/advan.html Am I correct in that if the yellow LED comes on, the circuit board will shut off but the power will remain ON to thru the cell ( that the cell will keep producing when the circuit board is off.) ......................... After reading more on your web site I now realize that when the circuit board sences a overvoltage, It also turns off the mosfets.Would a capacitor behind the bridge on my 13v circuit help ? Thanks
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Post by Gary Lecomte on Apr 1, 2007 5:56:39 GMT -8
Tony, You are obviously Putting in MORE than the 13.58 volts, thus it is shutting down completely. NOTE: Anytime You Rectify a Transformer, you "MUST Use Filter Capacitors" on the Output, Otherwise you Can't get a Correct Reading on the DC Voltage. And Without GOOD Filter Capacitors, You Really have almost NO DC CURRENT. Just a Lot a AC RIPPLE. The Circuit in that Link, is Essentially Simular to my circuit, Except you are at a Fixed Frequency with his circuit. (It says About 14 Khz.) It Only allows you to Adjust the Pulse Width. QUOTE: It controls the DC voltage like a light dimmer. www.electronic-light.com/advan.html** Your WRONG, That is Not Anything like how a Light Dimmer Works. Quote: Can't tell anything about the pulse width.Because of the way the PWM connects to the cell the pulse width doesn't control the cell voltage ** I Don't know What your Doing Wrong, But the "Pulse Width Control" on My circuit will DEFINATELY Control the Power to the Cell. The Pulse Width Switch in conjunction with the Pulse Width Pot, gives ranges from "0 to 50% and 50% to 100%". A Few Added Points: 1) It is Essential that when operating from Two Seperate Supply Voltages, that the NEGATIVES of the Two Supplys "Connect Together". 2) It is Also Essential, that Both of these Ground wires go "SEPERATELY and Directly to the Negatives of these Power Supplys. a) the Black one from the PCB b) the Ground one from the Mosfets.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2007 12:36:51 GMT -8
Gary I was putting to much voltage 21.26 rectified DC to the control circuit board. I must have wired the small transformer wrong. but I am now getting 11.86 Rectified DC and putting that thru a cap and the circuit board now functions as it suppose to. Its so cool! I wasn't implying that your circuit wouldn't work, just trying to explain my situation. ( I also had to run a jumper wire between the two separate supply's grounds.) OK now my cell is a parallel cell with four 1/4 inch stainless all thread rods two are for positive connection, and two are for the negative connection that alternate +-+-+- thru the cell I really only need two for the cell to work but I thought that two connections to each plate would distribute the power more easily thru the cell stack. anyway, I had only one set ot electrode connections hooked up to check out the Power supply and PWM and thought what the hey and went and got my little speaker and hooked it up to the extra connection rods on the cell. With the power off, after about 15 minutes as I started to hook up the speaker I got loud crackling upon contact with the wire to the rod. Soundes like a radio that was not tuned on a station. The cell started producing very small bubbles very close to the two rods that the speaker was connected to. All this, and I haven'y turned the power on yet. Of course when I pressed the power switch back on it started aloud eerrrrr tone then the speaker blew. do you think that a large mabe 500watt speaker could hold up? The speaker I blew was a very small one but it allowed me to listen to frequency on 12V power supply. Maybe some way to use a pot to turn down the volume? The use of the speaker allows me to hear when I am getting a smooth frequency or tone then I let it set and monitor the output. Pretty unconventional but its my way of doing it.
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Post by Gary Lecomte on Apr 2, 2007 6:19:10 GMT -8
Any size Speaker is OK.
HOWEVER: You NEED a CAPACITOR in SERIES with the Speaker, To "BLOCK The DC Current" from going into the Speaker. This will than allow the AC Signal to operate the Speaker.
Use a 100 to 1000uF Electrolytic Cap.
1) Connect the Positive of this cap to the Drain of the Mosfets, which is also one side of your cell.
2) Connect The Speaker to the Negative of the Cap.
3) The Other Terminal of the Speaker to Ground. (Battery Negative)
This Should work Fine.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 1:06:27 GMT -8
Gary is there anything I can do to maintain a solid voltage level with my 30V supply? Connected to a load (Cell) I get a voltage reading of 24.11 at 11 to 12 amps. This is on a cell with 1/4 inch spacing between the plates. and plain water no electrolyte. Transformer runs quietly on this cell. But on another cell with 1/8 inch spacing the voltage reading is 10.96 (Plain tap water ,no electrolyte) the transformer hums a bit louder and starts to heat up. my analog amp meter (15 amp panel mount) is pegged out, and My digital voltmeter will not read the amps if higher than 20 amps. This is strait electrolysis no PWM.
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Post by Gary Lecomte on Apr 8, 2007 4:30:31 GMT -8
Gary is there anything I can do to maintain a solid voltage level with my 30V supply? Connected to a load (Cell) I get a voltage reading of 24.11 at 11 to 12 amps. This is on a cell with 1/4 inch spacing between the plates. and plain water no electrolyte. Transformer runs quietly on this cell. But on another cell with 1/8 inch spacing the voltage reading is 10.96 (Plain tap water ,no electrolyte) the transformer hums a bit louder and starts to heat up. my analog amp meter (15 amp panel mount) is pegged out, and My digital voltmeter will not read the amps if higher than 20 amps. This is strait electrolysis no PWM. If you have that Much Current Flow on Plain Tap water: Either you have one REALLY HUGE CELL or you have REALLY CONTAMINATED WATER. I would guess the Latter. Pure water is Almost a NON-Conductor. There is NO WAY you will Maintain 30 Volts with that transformer. The Greater the Load on All Transformers, The Lower the Output. However Your Output seems to be Dropping Excessively, Probably because of: 1) Poor Design 2) Non-Evenly Wound layers of wire 3) Too small of a Secondary Wire. 4) The CORE IS SATURATING because it can't handle more. 24 Volts at 12 Amps is 288 Watts. NOW Consider This: Because of the Transfomer Efficiency and the Ripple Current being Used up in the Filter Cap, Your Transformer Input Power is Possibly 500 Watts, or maybe more. ** If your Digital Amp-meter also Measures AC Amps, Check out the Input Current and calculate what your real power consumption is. (Volts Times Amps) 10.96 at ? Amps = ? watts. But Definately Overloading the Transformer and Probably also not Filtering enough with your filter capacitor. Gary
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 5:11:29 GMT -8
Sorry about the mis-info the 10.96 V reading was taken with the two parallel cells wires togeather in series . both cell are large. Each cell has 1535 square inches of reactive area 11 sub cells (spaces)
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Post by Gary Lecomte on Apr 8, 2007 8:18:31 GMT -8
Sorry about the mis-info the 10.96 V reading was taken with the two parallel cells wires togeather in series . both cell are large. Each cell has 1535 square inches of reactive area 11 sub cells (spaces) Reguardless of that, Your water is Definately Quite Conductive with Chlorine or Minerals. JUst for your Info, Using Good Filtering Caps, Your Input Power to the Diodes(Watts) can be 1.6 Times greater your output power. So that 288 Watts Out is probably about 460 Watts into the Diodes. And This Doesn't take into account the Transformers Efficiency, which is Probably Less than 90%.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 14:48:40 GMT -8
I had a idea that because my cell was basically one large cell, with each plate being connected to either positive or to ground that the electricity only had to pass thru 1/8 of water to compleate its circuit within my parallel cell. this being the reason I can,t use but little to no electrolyte. In a series cell the electricity has to pass thru a lot of neutral plates and a lot more water to compleate it's circuit . So I built a fast series cell using spare SS condiment cups, I only had 10 but it is only to test my theroy. I placed the cell into my testing tank, turned on the power and waa laa, nothing happened. then slowly I noticed some bubbling very small but slowly increasing in number. took a volt reading and... 33 volts but I had no amps shown on the 15 amp gauge. I got some battery acid ( had on hand) and added a little about one ounce. bubbling increased (MY test tank holds 4 gal.) I had to add about one cup of battery acid and brought the amps up to 5, voltage reading is at 25.2 this brought my watts to 125 . The transformer seemed happy while the small series cell was bubblin like mad. But now I under stand why guys with series cell say they used pound of KOH. Ive always built parallel cells and they always have rust colored water. couldn't control the amp draw. with a series cell the electricity has to pass thru a lot of water and neutral plates to complete the circuit.This creates the necessity of adding a lot of KOH to get the amps up. Thanks again Gary for gettin me to thinkin.
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